flg
Souschef
Posts: 1,578
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Post by flg on Jun 4, 2023 20:03:12 GMT 1
Given where I am on some of the things I have been working on. I am leaning more and more towards the Marion Kay lineage being 11 ingredients including salt and any pepper. Plus MSG. And the OR from the 50’s being 16 including salt and any pepper. Plus MSG.
It may be as high as 17 plus MSG. There is merit to corporates response to the Settle’s recipe being 5 ingredients short on 11 ingredient recipes.
I’m pondering the why of Bill reducing the recipe. The obvious is allergens. But it could be he saw all the substitutes and overlaps. Specially on the herbs side. If the OR contained marjoram and oregano. Bill may have thought with the quantities used. Up marjoram and one less ingredient. Which also makes his recipe different that corporate. As an example.
Bill might have taken the herb count from 6 to 4.
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flg
Souschef
Posts: 1,578
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Post by flg on Jun 4, 2023 20:06:48 GMT 1
200 g. Flour 30.0g. Salt 7.00g. MSG 4.50g. Black Pepper (mixed grinds) (1) 2.25g. White Pepper (2) 1.00g. Allspice (3) 1.00g. Coriander (4) 1.00g. Sage (5) 1.00g. Yellow Mustard Seed (6) 0.50g. Celery Leaf (or) Celery Seed (7) 0.50g. Ginger (8) 0.50g. Savory (Winter or Summer?) (9) 0.50g. Anise-Seed (10) 0.25g. Garlic Powder (11) I really like a lot of those ingredient weights. |
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Post by Silver on Jun 5, 2023 1:00:22 GMT 1
I have never tasted anise or star anise in KFC. At least here in Canada. I’m guessing most of my younger years may have actually been 99x. I stopped adding anise a few cooks back and don’t miss it TBH. I complain openly (such as I have done on this very forum) when I can actually taste licorice in my recipes, just as I did for my very latest cook, where I complained of the licorice I was tasting, and at the same time my wife was saying she couldn't taste the licorice, and she proclaimed (to her great surprise) that Star-Anise was quite beneficial to the flavor (which was easy to discern since it was a split batch, half with, an half without Star-Anise, which we were eating side by side for comparison). That's twice now where I tasted the licorice and hated it, whereas my wife didn't taste it, and both times it was with Star-Anise at between 0.20 and 0.25 grams. On the other hand, neither of us can openly taste the licorice contribution from 0.50 grams of Anise Seed, and it has been in my very best recipes. The Star-Anise limit for 200 grams of flour must assuredly be below 0.20 grams (for 200 grams of flour). Something like 0.15 or 0.125 grams 'might' work as well as does 0.50 grams of Anise Seed. That puts the Anethole within Star-Anise at about 3.5 to 4 times greater than for Anise Seed, gram for gram. And this is logical because the % Anethole in both oils is essentially the same, but the oil yield derived from Star-Anise Seeds plus Pods is ballpark 3.5 to 4 times greater than the oil yield from Anise Seed (for the case of initial weight to weight equivalence). The trick for Anise Seed (and Star-Anise) is to add only what is not going to be openly taste identifiable as to licorice. Much the same as for all other ingredients sans for Salt, Pepper, and perhaps MSG. If we could openly identify them unequivocally as to their primary oil constituent level flavor identifier, we would have cracked this case long ago. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2023 9:30:38 GMT 1
I am not on team licorice. Normally. I used Star Anise in earlier attempts and ditched it later. Being open minded, I recently gave Ken's ginger-free recipe which contains 0.25 grams of Star Anise in 200 grams of flour a try. I really liked his chicken. When I then tried to reincorporate Star Anise into my own best recipe, there was no improvement, quite the opposite. Realising that there are different and diverging approaches that can lead to really good results is very confusing.
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Post by Silver on Jun 5, 2023 10:40:33 GMT 1
Clearly what I need to do is to make a split batch just as I did for Star-Anise and no Star-Anise, only this time For Anise Seed and no Anise Seed. Then my wife and I will see if Anise Seed is flavor positive or flavor negative.
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Post by Silver on Jun 5, 2023 12:35:51 GMT 1
Clearly what I need to do is to make a split batch just as I did for Star-Anise and no Star-Anise, only this time For Anise Seed and no Anise Seed. Then my wife and I will see if Anise Seed is flavor positive or flavor negative. Or flavor neutral... The contribution of licorice, if positive, is subliminal. It is not overt. Quite in an Umami sense, it's benefit 'may' be in enhancing the contributions of the other ingredients rather than via expressing it's own contribution. |
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Post by Silver on Jun 5, 2023 16:02:13 GMT 1
Anyone for some alternative ingredients? Let's hear them.
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flg
Souschef
Posts: 1,578
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Post by flg on Jun 5, 2023 21:50:32 GMT 1
I’d like to see people’s take if what corporate said or hinted at was true.
6 herbs
5 spices
11 ingredient recipe from 1964. Missing some ingredients. Another quote from them had it being about 5 ingredients short. Keeping in mind it’s more of how CHS would have thought about an ingredient. Was red pepper a spice or something else to him?
So
6 herbs
5 spices
Around 5 extra’s that might have been missing
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flg
Souschef
Posts: 1,578
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Post by flg on Jun 5, 2023 22:45:20 GMT 1
I'll throw a guess out.
6 herbs:
Thyme and Oregano
Sage and Savory
Marjoram and Basil
5 Spices:
Mustard
Coriander
Ginger
Allspice
Clove
Not counted in the 11 H&S:
Black Pepper
White Pepper
Red Pepper (paprika)
Garlic Salt
MSG
-------------------
Additional Salt
A typical early 99x style 11 ingredient recipe:
MSG
1 Black Pepper
2 White Pepper
3 Salt
4 Sage
5 Allspice
6 Red Pepper
7 Coriander
8 Ginger
9 Thyme
10 Marjoram
11 Savory
Missing:
Oregano
Basil
Mustard
Clove
Garlic Salt
*** Garlic Salt may well have been a seasoning salt (garlic, celery and onion)
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Post by Silver on Jun 6, 2023 0:01:08 GMT 1
I'll throw a guess out. 6 herbs: Thyme and Oregano Sage and Savory Marjoram and Basil 5 Spices: Mustard Coriander Ginger Allspice Clove Not counted in the 11 H&S: Black Pepper White Pepper Red Pepper (paprika) Garlic Salt MSG ------------------- Additional Salt A typical early 99x style 11 ingredient recipe: MSG 1 Black Pepper 2 White Pepper 3 Salt 4 Sage 5 Allspice 6 Red Pepper 7 Coriander 8 Ginger 9 Thyme 10 Marjoram 11 Savory Missing: Oregano Basil Mustard Clove Garlic Salt *** Garlic Salt may well have been a seasoning salt (garlic, celery and onion) I actually don't think the recipe requires that many ingredients. In fact I believe that the critical essence of the note is achievable with only 5 ingredients beyond B&W Pepper. What killed Lee's Famous Recipe Chicken well more than the restriction to five ingredients was/is the legal restriction which forbid them from lowering the temperature of their oil as in the KFC two tiered temperature method (which was, and likely still is, Patented). Pressure frying at only one single temperature likely leads to dry Chicken, particularly for the breasts. And (as I've mentioned before, being from Ohio and having eaten a fair amount of Lee's in my day) dry Chicken is what in my opinion has been Lee's Achilles Heel. Not flavor, which as I've mentioned multiple times before, can rival and even best KFC OR. Edit: deepfriednew101 has expressed that the recipe is so simple that a child can easily understand it. Aiming for 16-17 H&S ingredients makes child like recipe simplicity a far less likely proposition. |
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