Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2023 15:21:30 GMT 1
Absolutely blows my mind how a fake, publicity stunt recipe and the dodgy Shelton story keep you busy.
- CHS was so keen on sharing his secret recipe with Shelton that he would visit him completely unannounced and unprepared, not even having a pen, let alone the recipe in a written form. Typical behaviour when you want to share a recipe in detail...
- Shelton was not able to count to 11: He only later realises that one item was missing. Why would you even care and start counting when someone is sharing a million dollar recipe of 11 items with you?
- 10 (+1) items to be mixed with flour; no extra salt, vegetables or anything outside the 11. This goes against everything most of you believe and practise.
- Only several days later, CHS remembers that one item was missing from the recipe, which he could have written down himself in the first place to avoid this silly mistake if he was really serious about it (Point 1). So his memory was not good enough to recollect what the 11 herbs and spices were, but he would remember several days later that one item was missing from a piece of paper someone else had written down?
- Instead of giving Shelton a call, or visit him again, a random employee that CHS ran into, was instructed to reveal the last "secret" item. The OR was so secret, that CHS would summon Shelton to the parking lot like in a mafia movie, and yet we ought to believe he openly shared ingredients with a random employee.
- Sheltons attorney then persuades him that he doesn't really want his good friends recipe. As a successful business man himself, he would have known about property and patents etc. Shelton also does not seem to be asking himself why CHS would even want to share his recipe with him.
Makes perfect sense! I don't think he did give Shelton the OR recipe. I think he gave him the recipe him and Bill Summers developed. Which at the time would have been a lot like or the same as the recipe Pat Grace was using.
Brings us back to the legendary Ship of Theseus. I can only guess it would have been a more dynamic process. So when CHS himself approved of a change, for whatever reason, that updated formulation would now become the OR. He is the author of the OR. If you are aiming for the most ancient version, I guess you'll have to skip the MSG too. We all know that minor changes are possible without any major impact. Changing from Savory to Marjoram and Thyme, or from a cinnamon and clove combo to Allspice will not change the flavour profile big time if done correctly. What are you implying flg when you refer to the Bill Summers formulation? Merely a different set up of ingredients, or a different flavour profile?
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flg
Souschef
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Post by flg on Jun 14, 2023 16:15:06 GMT 1
I don't think he did give Shelton the OR recipe. I think he gave him the recipe him and Bill Summers developed. Which at the time would have been a lot like or the same as the recipe Pat Grace was using.
Brings us back to the legendary Ship of Theseus. I can only guess it would have been a more dynamic process. So when CHS himself approved of a change, for whatever reason, that updated formulation would now become the OR. He is the author of the OR. If you are aiming for the most ancient version, I guess you'll have to skip the MSG too. We all know that minor changes are possible without any major impact. Changing from Savory to Marjoram and Thyme, or from a cinnamon and clove combo to Allspice will not change the flavour profile big time if done correctly. What are you implying flg when you refer to the Bill Summers formulation? Merely a different set up of ingredients, or a different flavour profile? I'll step back to how I have ended up with the theory I have.
In 1964 - CHS sells the company and hands the OR recipe to Brown and Massey. I would assume as part of the sale there are Non compete and other non disclosure clauses in affect. in 1965 - CHS approaches Bill Summers of Marion Kay to build him a chicken seasoning. Now rumor is because he isn't happy with what the new owners did to his chicken. But this is real close to sale time. So it makes more sense it was because he and Claudia were starting their own business and he was gonna cook and continue selling chicken the way he wanted to. The story goes he gives a bag of seasoning to Bill and he within a week reverse engineers it and creates his own KFC mix. While all possible. The corporate bags at sale time would have already had extracts etc in them. More probable is he gives Bill some information. And Bill develops a seasoning similar tasting (Better according to CHS) but not identical to what corp had. This was on purpose. What eventually ends up being 99x. This is where I think an OR recipe branch of 15+ ingredients joins to a Marion Kay branch of perhaps 11. My point is they were not identical recipes and numbers of ingredients.
I believe that from this point on. Pat Grace's, Claudia's what was told to Shelton etc. came from the Marion Kay fork of the recipe. Not the OR recipe from the 50's - 64. This is why various facts of the stories don't line up and even CHS contradicts himself in various ways.
The final denial to Marion Kay as a supplier comes in March of 1973. Pat Grace looses his final Lawsuit on Feb 14th 1975. The same summer of 1975 CHS gives a recipe to Shelton. Timing isn't a coincidence. And Marion Kay trademarks 99x on December 2 1976.
Apology to @willy for clogging up his thread.
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smallgree
Chef
Here is a vial recipe:
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Post by smallgree on Jun 14, 2023 17:18:27 GMT 1
My calculations have:
Herbs (6) - 9.5g Spices (5) - 19.98g Code "five" - 12.62g Total salt - 56g Total recipe - 98.078g
I guess I'll just keep it to myself, eh naysayers. I'll go it alone. You can't say I took my ball and went home, because I'm completely wrong.
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flg
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Post by flg on Jun 14, 2023 17:31:39 GMT 1
My calculations have: Herbs (6) - 9.5g Spices (5) - 19.98g Code "five" - 12.62g Total salt - 56g Total recipe - 98.078g I guess I'll just keep it to myself, eh naysayers. I'll go it alone. You can't say I took my ball and went home, because I'm completely wrong. I’m interested in your theory. I posted mine
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2023 18:01:20 GMT 1
Brings us back to the legendary Ship of Theseus. I can only guess it would have been a more dynamic process. So when CHS himself approved of a change, for whatever reason, that updated formulation would now become the OR. He is the author of the OR. If you are aiming for the most ancient version, I guess you'll have to skip the MSG too. We all know that minor changes are possible without any major impact. Changing from Savory to Marjoram and Thyme, or from a cinnamon and clove combo to Allspice will not change the flavour profile big time if done correctly. What are you implying flg when you refer to the Bill Summers formulation? Merely a different set up of ingredients, or a different flavour profile? I'll step back to how I have ended up with the theory I have.
In 1964 - CHS sells the company and hands the OR recipe to Brown and Massey. I would assume as part of the sale there are Non compete and other non disclosure clauses in affect. in 1965 - CHS approaches Bill Summers of Marion Kay to build him a chicken seasoning. Now rumor is because he isn't happy with what the new owners did to his chicken. But this is real close to sale time. So it makes more sense it was because he and Claudia were starting their own business and he was gonna cook and continue selling chicken the way he wanted to. The story goes he gives a bag of seasoning to Bill and he within a week reverse engineers it and creates his own KFC mix. While all possible. The corporate bags at sale time would have already had extracts etc in them. More probable is he gives Bill some information. And Bill develops a seasoning similar tasting (Better according to CHS) but not identical to what corp had. This was on purpose. What eventually ends up being 99x. This is where I think an OR recipe branch of 15+ ingredients joins to a Marion Kay branch of perhaps 11. My point is they were not identical recipes and numbers of ingredients.
I believe that from this point on. Pat Grace's, Claudia's what was told to Shelton etc. came from the Marion Kay fork of the recipe. Not the OR recipe from the 50's - 64. This is why various facts of the stories don't line up and even CHS contradicts himself in various ways.
The final denial to Marion Kay as a supplier comes in March of 1973. Pat Grace looses his final Lawsuit on Feb 14th 1975. The same summer of 1975 CHS gives a recipe to Shelton. Timing isn't a coincidence. And Marion Kay trademarks 99x on December 2 1976.
Apology to @willy for clogging up his thread.
So you are saying CHS asked Bill to reverse engineer the very seasoning he was so upset about, making 99X the copy of a copy? It makes more sense to me to believe that CHS let Bill in on the OR and asked him to re-formulate the recipe, so that it would not be identical to what he sold to the Corp but would still hit the note and have the same flavour profile. It ended up being so good that MK was banned from using key items like Allspice. If what you are saying is true, 99X was the final nail in the OR coffin because instead of going back to old glory, it would only improve what was already a different recipe. Hence CHS fuelled the decline and loss of his own OR.
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Post by deepfriednew101 on Jun 14, 2023 19:42:37 GMT 1
I need to Post in regards to the Story as I'm possibly The ONLY one who Had Time with The parties involved and asked the Questions which Reporters Do Not ask.
C.H.S. had Sold the Corporation to Brown & Massey / Brown & Massey Had Originally ran into drought issues and were NOT available to receive the Imported Ingredients in One Year causing them to source lower then the High Quality Imported what were called exotic spices like Pimento from Jamaica.
Brown and Massey obtaining the Lower Grade items at a Cheap cost started to cost save over Quality even when there was availability of Imported exotic Spices or Herbs Massey was the Money man and could NOT Boil Water so gave a shit about Quality.
Then they also substituted items for cost instead of the Imported items they changed ingredients. C.H.S. knew they changed the items BUT was under contact of the Sale of the Franchise, BUT was getting in Crap over his comments to the Franchise for SLOP Food.
C.H.S. was and Only had 1 option have someone independent look at the washout changed NEW AGE Herbs and Spices and make it what the Original would have been in 1939. WITHOUT C.H.S. help as it had to be independent, a No Lead recipe by C.H.S. otherwise it would Have been a Contract breach on C.H.S. and NOT the Contract Breach that Brown & Massey had already done.
C.H.S. Had the Right to supply the Utah, Florida, Montana, Canada Franchises with the Marion Kay Chicken Seasoning which was a 100% 11 Herb and Spice secret Blend Copy, That Bill S mixed in 100% ratio Not the spoon ratio original recipe BUT was Basically the same.
C.H.S. cold have Bill S Marion Kay supply ONLY ONLY Utah, Florida, Montana, Canada under direction of C.H.S. THE PROBLEM is The other FRANCHISE saw a MAJOR difference in the Quality and Traveler's Complained, leading the NEW AGE FRANCHISES to ask NEW AGE corporation if they Could use Marion Kay Chicken Seasoning (IT WAS REFUSED) and the Crap Hit the Fan when NEW AGE sent a cease and desist order to Marion kay STOP selling or making inquiries to THE NEW AGE FRACNHISES. and a SLOW legal battle became.
Bill S. Marion Kay changed the 11 Herbs and Spices to 12 By adding One item. The legal battle continued. It was ONLY after C.H.S. Death that the New Age was NOT concerned about Backlash from C.H.S. or Contract dispute and or SHOT GUN effect contract reversal.
Bill S Marion kay was then in a loosing situation without C.H.S. quarter backing the Whole Deal on Bill S Team. NEW AGE then forced a settlement agreement on Marion Kay to Limit the Ingredients similar to the 1966 Court Case or Face a MAJOR COURT BATTLE that would have Bankrupted Marion Kay.
There is More to what each Person commented in regards to the Changes BUT this is NOT a BOOK and don't have the time, to write all the things that were Said by each party.
Bill S proved that ANY Spice company who viewed the NEW AGE spice Bag would and could recreate a 1939 Original from Knowlegde and understanding of Better Items and availability in 1939
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Post by Silver on Jun 14, 2023 19:57:51 GMT 1
Bill S proved that ANY Spice company who viewed the NEW AGE spice Bag would and could recreate a 1939 Original from Knowlegde and understanding of Better Items and availability in 1939 Here's my opinion on the idea that viewing a circa 1969 bag of (likely extractives ladened) ingredients can lead any expert straight to cloning the original 1939 secret recipe. Hahahahahaha!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2023 20:34:13 GMT 1
How would this not be considered a breach? CHS gave Bill Summers a commercial use only KFC seasoning bag and asked him to reverse engineer it. CHS was literally teaming up with a professional spice retailer to take on the Corp. If that is not a breach against any NDA or agreement, then I don't know. Don't tell me you really believe CHS would actually tape his lips during this joint endeavour, hoping Summers would eventually crack it? From scratch?
No. Not buying it. What matters is the outcome. And the outcome was 99X. The Corp couldn't care less how Summers got there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2023 21:18:23 GMT 1
The idea that Bill Summers 'cracked the recipe', I could only find in Josh Ozersky's book, a man that wasn't born before 1965 and wrote his book in the 2000s. Officially, in 1965, Summers merely "agreed to custom blend" in bulk packaging for Colonel Harland Sanders. According to The Tribune, Summers already started working with CHS in the 1950s.
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flg
Souschef
Posts: 1,578
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Post by flg on Jun 14, 2023 21:42:41 GMT 1
I'll step back to how I have ended up with the theory I have.
In 1964 - CHS sells the company and hands the OR recipe to Brown and Massey. I would assume as part of the sale there are Non compete and other non disclosure clauses in affect. in 1965 - CHS approaches Bill Summers of Marion Kay to build him a chicken seasoning. Now rumor is because he isn't happy with what the new owners did to his chicken. But this is real close to sale time. So it makes more sense it was because he and Claudia were starting their own business and he was gonna cook and continue selling chicken the way he wanted to. The story goes he gives a bag of seasoning to Bill and he within a week reverse engineers it and creates his own KFC mix. While all possible. The corporate bags at sale time would have already had extracts etc in them. More probable is he gives Bill some information. And Bill develops a seasoning similar tasting (Better according to CHS) but not identical to what corp had. This was on purpose. What eventually ends up being 99x. This is where I think an OR recipe branch of 15+ ingredients joins to a Marion Kay branch of perhaps 11. My point is they were not identical recipes and numbers of ingredients.
I believe that from this point on. Pat Grace's, Claudia's what was told to Shelton etc. came from the Marion Kay fork of the recipe. Not the OR recipe from the 50's - 64. This is why various facts of the stories don't line up and even CHS contradicts himself in various ways.
The final denial to Marion Kay as a supplier comes in March of 1973. Pat Grace looses his final Lawsuit on Feb 14th 1975. The same summer of 1975 CHS gives a recipe to Shelton. Timing isn't a coincidence. And Marion Kay trademarks 99x on December 2 1976.
Apology to @willy for clogging up his thread.
So you are saying CHS asked Bill to reverse engineer the very seasoning he was so upset about, making 99X the copy of a copy? It makes more sense to me to believe that CHS let Bill in on the OR and asked him to re-formulate the recipe, so that it would not be identical to what he sold to the Corp but would still hit the note and have the same flavour profile. It ended up being so good that MK was banned from using key items like Allspice. If what you are saying is true, 99X was the final nail in the OR coffin because instead of going back to old glory, it would only improve what was already a different recipe. Hence CHS fuelled the decline and loss of his own OR. Read my post I also say I don’t believe Bill reversed a corporate bag of seasoning either. CHS definitely tipped some cards.
We are saying the same thing at this point. If you believe this is a plausible theory.
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