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Post by Silver on Jan 17, 2022 14:40:27 GMT 1
Let us know your thoughts on this. My thought is that Summer Savory was not one of the Herbs included within the 1940 'finalized' Original Recipe.
This herb is nigh-on impossible to locate within the United States, and CHS only moved to Canada decades later. He did apparently state that the herbs and spices he used to lock in his 1940 recipe (the first to be locked in) were common items to be found in the spice cabinets of Southern USA homes circa 1940.
Edit: The same logic applies to Star-Anise...
Other H&S?
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flg
Souschef
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Post by flg on Jan 17, 2022 18:28:36 GMT 1
Although these could both be distractions: He had the old commercial when being tortured for the recipe he gives up Savory, plus hub caps etc. On the Todd Wilbur episode. One of his close contacts told Todd that his mother taught him Sage and Savory makes good chicken I think it was identified in today's 99-x scientifically. Not anything concrete.
I like the smell of it when mixing and miss it when not there.
I'm not convinced one way or the other. But it's there before Star Anise ever was.
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Post by Silver on Jan 17, 2022 18:33:30 GMT 1
Savory has several common meanings. Until I launched my cloning efforts, I had never associated the word with a specific herb. I would more have associated it with the likes of flavors imparted by mushrooms, or certain cheeses, or soy sauce, or chicken bullion, or MSG, or Worcester Sauce, or any beneficial blend of multiple flavors that when combined are more than each constituent in part, from wherever derived.
Who knows what the intended specific meaning was when his mom mentioned it to him? Only those for which it is common would point to an herb by that name.
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Post by Silver on Jan 17, 2022 19:01:30 GMT 1
To me the word savory induces mental perceptions and/or connotations akin to those likely perceived by the Japanese when they hear the word umami.
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Post by Silver on Jan 17, 2022 20:58:21 GMT 1
To my tastebuds the herb Savory brings connotations of anything but being savory. The taste was honestly awful. Perhaps this was directly due to my expectation that an herb named Savory must in fact be savory.
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flg
Souschef
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Post by flg on Jan 17, 2022 22:51:10 GMT 1
The name is an odd descriptor for sure.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2022 23:42:53 GMT 1
It is quite interesting that both Todd and Glen disclosed Summer Savory as the main herb in weight and not only as a possible item. Todd used twice the amount of Savory (!). Maybe it's time to kick Sage off the throne. I am starting to think that Sage might actually be THE great note coverer when placed too high.
Also, the narrative of Summer Savory being merely a Canadian item cannot be true. It is in almost every U.S. Poultry Seasoning since like ever? Also in Durkee's if I'm not wrong. CHS knew Summer Savory very well and it had been used in his family for chicken since he was a child if we believe his former secretary.
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Post by Silver on Feb 19, 2022 11:17:09 GMT 1
It is quite interesting that both Todd and Glen disclosed Summer Savory as the main herb in weight and not only as a possible item. Todd used twice the amount of Savory (!). Maybe it's time to kick Sage off the throne. I am starting to think that Sage might actually be THE great note coverer when placed too high. Also, the narrative of Summer Savory being merely a Canadian item cannot be true. It is in almost every U.S. Poultry Seasoning since like ever? Also in Durkee's if I'm not wrong. CHS knew Summer Savory very well and it had been used in his family for chicken since he was a child if we believe his former secretary. Glen rather obviously hemmed and hawed about Savory, saying only that he "could see how it might be in there". This is vastly different from placing it at the pinnacle. And if Greg's listing of Grace's ingredients is correct, there is no Savory in Grace's Strong Blend. That said, I'm on record here of late as stating that due to chemical analysis discovering very little 'Thymol' there is the possibility that Savory is in the recipe and no Thyme is present. A number of my recently proposed recipes actually state to use either Savory or Thyme (but not both). My fear is that placing Savory at the pinnacle is that this would drive "Thymol" to levels not seen via analysis. But then I did question as to why anyone would pay attention to such analysis... In the end you are free to bump Savory to the pinnacle position. We are all freely (and hopefully openly) seeking the 'note', and this may be the (or one) way to achieve it. I still affirm however that Savory (as a stand alone spice) is not to be found on the shelves of most stores in the USA. |
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Post by Silver on Feb 19, 2022 11:35:23 GMT 1
Glen also stated that a blend of 99X (which has Sage at the pinnacle) and Grace's (which has Sage second from last among the H&S) is actually best. This would move Sage more toward the middle. But nothing in this can be inferred whereby to vault Savory to the top spot among the H&S.
The one time in which I moved Savory to the pinnacle (my cooked recipe #5, generally following the advice from Glen's "Canadian Friend", whereby to directly replace Allspice with Savory) I found the result to be not to my liking and my comments indicate that the note was not present. I have recipe #5 stored in my "Failed Attempts" folder on my computer. But in fairness, my #5 had zero Allspice and zero Star-Anise, and was relying only upon Clove and Nutmeg whereby to deliver Eugenol. Plus my notes indicate that it had too much Oregano flavor, as I had made a 1:1 (by weight) substitution of Oregano for Marjoram in recipe #5. It would have tasted better if I knew back then what I know now, with this being that when substituting Oregano for Marjoram, add Oregano at only half the weight of Marjoram.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2022 14:21:04 GMT 1
Glen also stated that a blend of 99X (which has Sage at the pinnacle) and Grace's (which has Sage second from last among the H&S) is actually best. This would move Sage more toward the middle. But nothing in this can be inferred whereby to vault Savory to the top spot among the H&S. The one time in which I moved Savory to the pinnacle (my cooked recipe #5, generally following the advice from Glen's "Canadian Friend", whereby to directly replace Allspice with Savory) I found the result to be not to my liking and my comments indicate that the note was not present. I have recipe #5 stored in my "Failed Attempts" folder on my computer. But in fairness, my #5 had zero Allspice and zero Star-Anise, and was relying only upon Clove and Nutmeg whereby to deliver Eugenol. Plus my notes indicate that it had too much Oregano flavor, as I had made a 1:1 (by weight) substitution of Oregano for Marjoram in recipe #5. It would have tasted better if I knew back then what I know now, with this being that when substituting Oregano for Marjoram, add Oregano at only half the weight of Marjoram. Thank you for your feedback. Much appreciated. I have a few points to make though. Again, please don't get me wrong. Not trying to be harsh.
- We don't have any reliable lab analysis of the OR. There are rather unusable attempts on the CR (Corp Recipe) and one rather ambiguous analysis of 99X. So even if these were correct and from trustworthy sources, which has never been proven, they do not reveal the OR formulation in any way, shape or form. I know I referred to jwoz in the past, and I really appreciate the effort, but it doesn't prove anything really I'm afraid. If it did, the forums would have been closed already and we'd have the recipe by now. A pdf translation of a chinese analysis of a highly processed fried corp chicken will not convince me. Neither the analysis of a spice mixture that lost court cases posted by someone I don't know without giving out the actual lab analysis. Not to mention that these analyses contradict themselves. This makes your entire "thymol" and "eugenol" escapade unsubstantiated really.
- If you understand Glens finding to mean that both Allspice and Savory are in the OR, Savory would be the highest herb. This is how I interpret it. I think he couldn't reveal it in any more detail. If you add both items to the recipe, you get 11 ingredients. Also, Allspice and Savory are in no possible way related. It cannot be a regional substitute as some put it. No way. Omitting or adding Allspice at that level will completely change your flavour.
- In your attempt you moved Savory to the pinnacle by omitting Allspice completely if I remember correctly. Allspice is very important though and should not be replaced. Also, you can still go wrong with the amount of Savory and the ratios of all other ingredients. So if you add Savory to a faulty recipe and don't get the note will not disprove Savory.
- Not on everybody's shelf. Poultry seasoning has been super popular in the US ever since. Since Savory was part of most formulae, Savory has in deed been "on very shelf", just not as a single herb as you seem to expect?
- As a result, when will you officially rename the forum to "KFC Forum - Crack the Bag"? Since you are zealously defending the corp bags and rely on doubtful "lab" analyses thereof, this would be much more appropriate.
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