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Post by Silver on Feb 19, 2022 15:42:00 GMT 1
Early on in KFC franchise history there were two presumed equivalent ways for the franchises to go about breading their KFC Original Recipe Chicken. Primary method: Use 'KFC One Step' (which is all inclusive) Alternate method: Add 1 'Bag Seasoning' to 25 Lbs. of flour plus 3.75 Lbs of salt.   From this I presume that by at least the time of 'franchises' (1952 and onward) the "Bag" was already an integral part of things. It's not that I've become a slave to the Bag concept, but that the Bag is not easy to ignore and/or outright dismiss. And bags imply nominally fixed (yet on occasion evolutionary) quantities. As an aside, you and I both appear to like (and even prefer) going overboard on MSG, but I can find nothing within the history of this chicken that suggests CHS or later KFC Corporate ever advising the "Zinging" of MSG. And Corporate never seemed to condone Zinging the H&S. That was only something that rogue franchises using MK Seasoning (pre 99X) were doing, until a lawsuit seemingly put an end to this practice. |
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Post by Silver on Feb 19, 2022 17:21:06 GMT 1
From the 'One Step' bag we learn that Dextrose in an ingredient.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2022 0:46:46 GMT 1
Early on in KFC franchise history there were two presumed equivalent ways for the franchises to go about breading their KFC Original Recipe Chicken. Primary method: Use 'KFC One Step' (which is all inclusive) Alternate method: Add 1 'Bag Seasoning' to 25 Lbs. of flour plus 3.75 Lbs of salt. From this I presume that by at least the time of 'franchises' (1952 and onward) the "Bag" was already an integral part of things. It's not that I've become a slave to the Bag concept, but that the Bag is not easy to ignore and/or outright dismiss. And bags imply nominally fixed (yet on occasion evolutionary) quantities. As an aside, you and I both appear to like (and even prefer) going overboard on MSG, but I can find nothing within the history of this chicken that suggests CHS or later KFC Corporate ever advising the "Zinging" of MSG. And Corporate never seemed to condone Zinging the H&S. That was only something that rogue franchises using MK Seasoning (pre 99X) were doing, until a lawsuit seemingly put an end to this practice. As long as we do not know what's actually in the bag, be it ingredients or ratios, any reference to the bag is rather pointless. It's pure speculation. Which is not a bad thing per se. We all make speculations. But it's next level stuff when you come up with ideas like "bag compliance" and keep several threads dedicated to that topic. You are a seasoning bag zealot. Admit it.  You say we like to go overboard and zing with MSG. Well how in the world can tell if you don't know the amount of MSG in the OR? In order to make such a statement, you would need to know the amount of MSG used by CHS or KFC, which you most certainly do not. We might be using more than other forum members. But that doesn't prove us wrong or right. |
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Post by Silver on Feb 20, 2022 1:55:14 GMT 1
My point is that we can easily deduce that our favored levels of MSG are not even close to being realistic, because when scaled to 25 pounds of flour our favored MSG levels would be on the order of 2.5 pounds. Indeed we do not know specifically what is in the 40 ounce bag, but since 2.5 pounds is equal to 40 ounces, we can conclude that it is insane to presume that the secret to KFC_OR is simply to add 3 pounds of salt and 2.5 pounds of MSG to 25 pounds of flour. No Black Pepper, no White Pepper, no Herbs, and no Spices...
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Post by Silver on Feb 20, 2022 1:59:51 GMT 1
As expounded upon earlier, there is (to my knowledge) no evidence to be uncovered from any source whereby to deduce that a separate MSG bag/box existed and was instructed to be added to the Lug in conjunction with a Salt bag/box and an Herb & Spice bag.
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Post by Silver on Feb 20, 2022 2:16:39 GMT 1
Is it truly pointless to presume ratios of MSG, B&W Pepper, and the "other H&S's" within the bag? We are all close on the B&W Pepper at least as to its ratio of the 40 ounce content. And we must accept that in order for there to be any H&S content at all the MSG and Salt components must be within ranges that can be defined to be within certain ranges. Salt (in addition to Pepper) is rather easy to ascertain simply via eating real KFC_OR side by side with any of our recipes. We know that there is Salt within the 40 ounce bag (in addition to H&S and lastly Garlic Powder) not only because the bag tells this to us, but via taste comparison, plus our knowledge that the 3 Lb.salt bag/box does not provide sufficient salt per our taste buds. For 200 grams of flour we all seem to accept salt at between 26 and 30 grams, with a mid-range of 28 grams, yet the 3 Lb. salt bag/box scales to only 24 grams in 200 grams of flour. Both flg and myself are on record as saying that as our recipes downplay the H&S they become better tasting and better note revealing, and as we add too many grams of H&S we move in the opposite direction. Thus we may not be finalizing the specifics of the H&S, but we are converging upon H&S being on the order of 2.5-2.6 grams when scaled to 200 grms of flour, or about 5 ounces when scaled to 25 Lbs. of flour. So when we can ballpark the pepper, and ballpark the salt, and ballpark the H&S, we can then (via subtraction) ballpark the MSG. And all within ratios which you presume to be pointless to pursue. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2022 15:22:19 GMT 1
What you do not seem take into consideration at all is the amount of Salt and MSG used in the brine/marinade/tumbling/injection or whatever else may have been used before breading. Again, numbers we don't have. You simpIy ignore and skip this step and try to squeeze everything into the seasoning bag. If it's true that CHS also used spices and herbs already in his brine, or extracts today, then again, this would decrease the amount of H&S needed in the seasoning bag as well. This is probably why the order of ingredients on the bags have changed during time with different techniques and pre-seasonings used (?). But you're the bagspert. This is why I consider your mathematical deductions and explications pointless. But I still appreciate the effort and passion.
I for instance use very low amounts of Salt in my breading, because the Chicken is already salted from skin to bone before I coat it. It just needs a bit of Salt for the actual breading. So wouldn't I be even more in line with the bags that have Salt as second lowest ingredient by order? Well, depends which of the bags you refer to I assume.
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Post by Silver on Feb 20, 2022 15:51:05 GMT 1
I for instance use very low amounts of Salt in my breading, because the Chicken is already salted from skin to bone before I coat it. It just needs a bit of Salt for the actual breading. So wouldn't I be even more in line with the bags that have Salt as second lowest ingredient by order? Well, depends which of the bags you refer to I assume. If that is the case for you, then you are quite likely doing it (I.E., brining) incorrectly, as clearly KFC adds 3 pounds of salt to 25 pounds of flour, whereby when scaled to 200 grams of flour this is 24 grams of salt. Unless of course you mean adding 24 grams when you reference adding "very low amounts of Salt in my breading".
The Canadian KFC website indicates that KFC does indeed brine/marinate other of their fried chicken types, but does not brine/marinate Original Recipe. The KFC USA website mentions brining in a solution of salt, some unmentioned chemical derivation of a "sodium phosphate", and MSG.
But a peer reviewed dissertation on the phosphate treatment of meats which is currently being actively discussed within the 'other' KFC forum clearly indicates that salt defeats the purpose of adding the phosphates to brining, so salt must (if present) be minimal. The study being discussed explicitly states within a mention of thanks to KFC for providing the details used (or merely regurgitated) within the peer reviewed paper/study on phosphating. Therefore KFC well knows to keep the salt way down during any brining phase undertaken pre breading.
And KFC bags contain Salt as well, and it ranks right behind combined B&W Pepper as indicated on the bag. This is obviously above and beyond the 3 Lb. bag, and lends support to low levels of salt during brining (if done at all, see Canada's website...).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2022 21:52:31 GMT 1
In the US, the raw and boneless chicken meat contains a water solution of up to 18% (!), with salt being the 2nd highest ingredient after water followed by spices, extracts and others. If find it very hard to believe that the Canadian OR is not preseasoned at all. But fair enough. Now you have your salt level. Which has zero impact on the note by the way and the most important part of your seasoning bag, the percentage of spices and MSG remains unknown. So again, pure speculation. Your recipes therefore are not "bag compliant". They are bag-speculation-compliant with a pinch of Ledington. This forum lacks intellectual honesty and transparency. If everyone lives his own "truth", there cannot be any joint progress. This is why I am out. I will no longer listen to the same old questionable stories or fuel your obsessions with my findings and feelings.
I wish everyone good luck though. May God bless you all. Stay safe.
Kind regards.
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Post by Silver on Feb 20, 2022 22:04:50 GMT 1
Once you know the Salt and Pepper ranges, the MSG must exceed them within the bag, because MSG is listed as the first ingredient within the bag. But add too much MSG and you have no room left for H&S. Everything must seek its balance point.
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