Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2022 14:49:35 GMT 1
Looking back at KFC's Seasoned Flour Box and the Seasoned Flour Bag , I was wondering why Herbs are listed before Spices and yet in every recipe, including my own, we all seem to add far more spices than herbs by weight. The packaging does not indicate the use of spice extracts which would possibly explain this. And if extracts had been used here already, the same could be the case for herbs. Every single Poultry Seasoning formulation I came across had far more herbs than spices if that means anything with regards to the OR. I must also admit that I always felt utterly baffled by the low amounts of herbs used in popular recipes like Dustin's (0,075 grams of Thyme and Marjoram per 100 grams of flour). I doubt that anyone will be able to taste the addition or omission of 0,075 grams of Thyme. Honestly. So I am considering flipping ratios as per below ingredient list(s). Any ideas or thoughts?   |
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Post by Silver on Aug 11, 2022 15:40:49 GMT 1
Looking back at KFC's Seasoned Flour Box and the Seasoned Flour Bag , I was wondering why Herbs are listed before Spices and yet in every recipe, including my own, we all seem to add far more spices than herbs by weight. The packaging does not indicate the use of spice extracts which would possibly explain this. And if extracts had been used here already, the same could be the case for herbs. Every single Poultry Seasoning formulation I came across had far more herbs than spices if that means anything with regards to the OR. I must also admit that I always felt utterly baffled by the low amounts of herbs used in popular recipes like Dustin's (0,075 grams of Thyme and Marjoram per 100 grams of flour). I doubt that anyone will be able to taste the addition or omission of 0,075 grams of Thyme. Honestly. So I am considering flipping ratios as per below ingredient list(s). Any ideas or thoughts? I'm fairly certain that spices must vastly outweigh herbs overall. And in this I've even gone so far as to say that given the right spices, herbs can be left out completely. But this endeavor is wide open to experimentation, and who knows when the recipe we all seek will be eclipsed and left by the wayside. As to why these very early examples imply more herbs than spices, I can only speculate that perhaps back then the ingredient ordering requirements were different. |
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Post by Silver on Aug 11, 2022 15:46:22 GMT 1
The only "vegetable herb" I can think of immediately right off the top of my head would be Celery leaves.
Sage, Savory, Rosemary, Tarragon, Marjoram, and Oregano are not vegetable herbs.
I'm defining a 'vegetable herb' to be the edible leaves of an edible vegetable plant.
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Post by Silver on Aug 11, 2022 15:51:09 GMT 1
If there were labeling laws, it might be that back then the enforcement of label ingredient ordering laws was effectively non-existent. Or the penalty imposed was so inconsequential as to be of no concern.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2022 16:02:43 GMT 1
If there were labeling laws, it might be that back then the enforcement of label ingredient ordering laws was effectively non-existent. Or the penalty imposed was so inconsequential as to be of no concern. I could only imagine that Paprika, which I believe to be higher up, or Tomato powder, if used, make "herbs" outweigh spices. I struggle with the idea that the order starts being incorrect here after it seems quite specific and correct with all previous positions...? |
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Post by deepfriednew101 on Aug 11, 2022 16:02:53 GMT 1
if you review the Laws in relationship to Spices and Herbs 1905 FDA The Laws were MORE severe and Heavy fines were issue for false label situations \.
It has been establish for Decades and before the KFC recipe in 1939 that highest amounts were listed to lowest.
Only what was found in many court cases going back to 1910 and articles regarding spices.
Vegetable was NOTED in 1930's court cases as Onion, Garlic, Celery, and other Vegetable Flake items
Most old Spice Tins of the 1930's showed Vegetable as the word in relationship to the item and a PHOTO
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2022 16:10:36 GMT 1
if you review the Laws in relationship to Spices and Herbs 1905 FDA The Laws were MORE severe and Heavy fines were issue for false label situations \. It has been establish for Decades and before the KFC recipe in 1939 that highest amounts were listed to lowest. Only what was found in many court cases going back to 1910 and articles regarding spices. Vegetable was NOTED in 1930's court cases as Onion, Garlic, Celery, and other Vegetable Flake items Most old Spice Tins of the 1930's showed Vegetable as the word in relationship to the item and a PHOTO This would explain the seasoning bag. The commercial box however puts herbs before spices. This is where I struggle a bit since we would nowadays consider paprika and garlic powder more spices than herbs... |
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flg
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Post by flg on Aug 11, 2022 20:03:04 GMT 1
I think @11serbs has a valid point. If paprika being from a red pepper was thought to be a vegetable herb. And I think it’s valid to assume paprika was in OR real early on. Adding what you’d need of that would by itself set herbs higher.
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Post by Silver on Aug 11, 2022 20:31:25 GMT 1
I think @11serbs has a valid point. If paprika being from a red pepper was thought to be a vegetable herb. And I think it’s valid to assume paprika was in OR real early on. Adding what you’d need of that would by itself set herbs higher. But herbs are (to my knowledge) exclusively leaves. I'm sticking with a 'vegetable herb' being the leaf portion of a vegetable bearing plant. Edit: Via an extension of my logic, Celery Seed would become technically a 'vegetable spice'. Would that exclude it from being counted among the 11? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2022 9:40:16 GMT 1
The wording "vegetable herbs and spices" is indeed challenging. The commercial flour box is somewhat clearer. But then again it is not. We will probably never find out. However, as mentioned before, there is no Poultry Seasoning formulation that sets spices higher than the herbs. The truth is, that spices are much stronger than herbs. This is why you generously sprinkle Oregano onto your pizza or enjoy a cup of Sage tea using 1-2 teaspoons when your throat hurts. I highly recommend both btw  . You don't use those quantities with spices. Ever. You all know how very small amounts of Cloves or Cinnamon for instance ruin your recipe. Anyway, I struggle with the idea that CHS (allegedly) pointed out two herbs, Sage and Savory, that go particularly well with chicken, when in reality, herbs do not play a big role and that you are supposed to use undetectable amounts of it. This is why I will never support any herb-free recipe movement  . |
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. You don't use those quantities with spices. Ever. You all know how very small amounts of Cloves or Cinnamon for instance ruin your recipe. 
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