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Post by Silver on Mar 14, 2022 17:20:32 GMT 1
A recipe proposal that revisits Paprika and Tarragon, and eliminates Marjoram/Oregano.
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flg
Souschef
Posts: 1,578
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Post by flg on Mar 15, 2022 0:54:32 GMT 1
Unless information comes out that I haven't considered. This will be my next cook. To get here I went back and looked at my 2 best cooks to date. That being the "Kitchen Sink" and the "Fun one" bonus to "Fun one v.2". I had notes on what I would want to improve on in each. A good handful of ingredient weights matched between those recipes. deepfriednew101 maintains that most likely CHS worked on batches equal to 3.5 cups of sifted flour early on. From there I went and validated volume measurements into 3.5 cups of flour. Looking for whole, half and quarter measurements. I then converted things back to 200g flour. All done as a check point. Everyone knows I love the Shelton Winston story and his 10 ingredient missing one 13g ingredient. (If I never solve this. Here is the reason future self). Back to the spice handbook to double check percentage of ingredient combinations in recipes. I even went back to the vials as much as I don't put a ton of faith in them. But I can make this fit in the vials. 8g MSG - Not in Shelton's Story or Vials 3g Black Pepper (K) 3g White Pepper (G) 1.3g Garlic Salt - Yes, the missing 13 - Not in vials 0.4g Coriander (A) 0.4g Ginger (F) 0.4g Thyme (I) 0.3g Red Pepper form (paprika+cayenne) or flakes (J) 0.3g Sage (D) 0.3g Savory (B) 0.2g Allspice (E) 0.2g Cloves (C) 0.2g Nutmeg (H) To be mixed into 200g flour and 27-29g salt range - I think what confused Shelton is CHS gave him Pepper as 1 ingredient. But explained the weights of how he blended it. He meant to include garlic salt but forgot. - I think the vials don't include garlic/garlic salt. It was most likely garlic powder by this time and listed outside of the other H&S as per packaging - If I had to remove ingredients for legal reasons. I drop Cloves and Nutmeg and up Allspice. Now it sits in the position Glen said Carl told him. Right before Coriander. Marjoram for savory which may have been hard to source in some regions. Red pepper and garlic may not be make or break items so they could be dropped as well. I get to Carl's list with with reasonable decisions. Being honest. From an ingredient perspective the only real consideration for me would be is savory in or marjoram from the start. Savory has been mentioned in a commercial and in the Todd Wilbur show. Which could be meant to throw folks off. Other than that I could tweak an ingredient or two (+/-) 0.1g but not more for now. I was messing around a bit tonight so I took one of the poultry dressing recipes and worked through all the ratios with the same ingredients. It worked out damn close to what I posted above when I used volume to weight in 3.5 cups then 200g. What changed was nutmeg doubled. Thyme and Cayenne went down the most. It's very close for the rest of the ingredients.
0.45g Coriander (A) 0.45g Ginger (F) 0.40g Nutmeg (H)
0.30g Savory (B) 0.25g Sage (D)
0.25g Thyme (I) 0.2g Allspice (E) 0.2g Cloves (C) 0.2g Red Pepper form (paprika+cayenne) or flakes (J)
Nutmeg and Cayenne would be the most noticeable difference. The other ingredients probably close enough in this small quantity. I'll cook the first version adding a bit more nutmeg is an option to get close enough to version 2 of this.
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Post by Silver on Mar 15, 2022 12:59:06 GMT 1
I haven't forgotten Cumin. My best recipes have benefited from the small amount of Cumin within their Chili Powder. And therefore:
No Marjoram or Oregano, in keeping with Deep Taste's theory that CHS probably used Tarragon, an after lawsuits others were forced to remove Tarragon and replace it with either Marjoram or Oregano.
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flg
Souschef
Posts: 1,578
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Post by flg on Mar 15, 2022 13:15:50 GMT 1
No doubt they used tarragon vinegar in their coleslaw it was called out in the lawsuit. And printed in the article that was in the paper. I haven't seen where they referenced tarragon to their chicken. Again, I'm not trying to say it's not there. I just don't think it's a fact that it was removed via a lawsuit for the chicken. It was for the slaw.
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Post by Silver on Mar 15, 2022 13:16:01 GMT 1
I also seem to recall deepfriednew101 mentioning at least once that when using sage and savory there is no need to also add marjoram or oregano. Perhaps he will chime in to clarify this.
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Post by Silver on Mar 15, 2022 13:19:13 GMT 1
No doubt they used tarragon vinegar in their coleslaw it was called out in the lawsuit. And printed in the article that was in the paper. I haven't seen where they referenced tarragon to their chicken. Again, I'm not trying to say it's not there. I just don't think it's a fact that it was removed via a lawsuit for the chicken. It was for the slaw. Yes, it is all speculation. But KFC is careful to guard their secret H&S's, even during court lawsuits.
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Post by deepfriednew101 on Mar 15, 2022 16:06:54 GMT 1
Tarragon, Sage, Savory, Marjoram ETC.
Tarragon was spoke about in the Original Court Case and it was sparked by the coleslaw use, BUT in the court paperwork that is NOT FULLY REPRESENTED in the news article was specific, Tarragon and Tarragon Oil, Heinz Tarragon Vinegar. Were in the Coleslaw and also Macaroni Salad. It also indicated Tarragon in the chicken. I DO NOT have a clue where the copies of the court case are NOW. I purchased FULL copies of the court case documents and written decision from the Judge, and also had conversations with the then Living attorneys on the file. BUT that's ALL but we are taking about 4 decades ago. The conversation are still vivid as the day spoke BUT the exact words in the Final decision are limited to the information received.
The written decision indicated that the Tarragon was used in many KFC recipes, and chicken. The Court case also BOUND other competitors from using more then 5 Ingredient's. THIS WAS MY FOCUS OF INVESTIGATION I was looking into when I reviewed Paperwork and spoke with everyone ON how a Judge court make a ruling on other competitors that were NOT party to the Court Case and listed as a Plaintiff or a Defendant. The Judge took the scope it was more related to if Famous Brand was to OPEN a NEW company and start a NEW venture it would be encompassed in the COURT ORDER. KFC NEW AGE has taken the approach that it INCLUDES EVERYONE, from Marion Kay and Grace in England and had made there interpretation stick.
The problem is when fighting KFC NEW AGE is they are a Billion Dollar company who have $ 25 Million Dollars in there Legal Team bank role. There problem is they Do Not have FULL RIGHTS over a recipe BUT they have FULL rights over Corporate Law and Contract, including Non Disclosure Documents, which are Tied to even a Fry Cook at KFC, and ANY previous employee down to the Janitor.
Sage and Savory were mentioned in the CMT Todd Wilbur Video and the Secretary Shirley T who references BOTH items, There is a 1967 TV Ad where CHS is hooked to a Lie Detector and questioned where he references. Savory and also the WORD 4 Ounces as a general term
A key point that Savory was used more in Canada then the USA. Also the KEY point was delivery of Spices from the USA to Canada, until CHS was mixing spices In Calgary. The difference was CHS was using Savory in the Canadian Mix and Sage in the USA. to make a more uniform Blend it was being mixed together as 1 Item.
THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT OF LAW AND FACT which throws EVERYONE OFF.
is I trademark a Term (ABC123 Spices and Herb) or 11 Herbs and Spices or the Original Blend ETC ETC ETC and its listed in a Ingredient List as LONG as I use 3 to 5% of that BLEND I CAN AD WHAT EVER ELSE I WANT TO THE MIX and its fair game NOT to list the OUTSIDE items unless it specifies otherwise for COLOR and or Specific Items Garlic, Onion, Celery, Mustard. ETC ETC.
SO the Labels Can be deceiving to the EYE.
The problem is being limited to a 24 Hour Day and NOT having enough to re-post Old information that was Posted over the Last 25 Years and shared.
The items that were used and tried and the BS along the way. PLUS the investment factor. ALL for the Hospitality Dish called CHICKEN
If a person had time to only reply to Forums it would be great but the Real world interferes.
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Post by Silver on Mar 24, 2022 11:52:39 GMT 1
Introducing the "Skip The Bag, I Want To Make Tasty Chicken" Recipe:
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Post by deepfriednew101 on Mar 24, 2022 12:26:02 GMT 1
If you Pre-Dust the Chicken it also helps to Dry the Chicken.
CHS PRE-Dusted the Chicken with skin that was messed up and then started doing it for a better adhesion of the coating
Pre-Dusting IS NOT a DOUBLE DREDGING
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Post by deepfriednew101 on Mar 24, 2022 12:42:38 GMT 1
This Recipe is a Gifted Recipe which Ties in line when there was rumor's that Heavy Commercial Salt was used.
Its very similar to your recipe. A must try.
Salt 14 White Pepper 14 Black Pepper 10 MSH 35 Garlic Salt 40 Celery Salt 20 Paprika 32 Oregano 3 Mustard 10 Ginger 7 Basil 3.5 Thyme 3.5 Sage 1.5 Mace 1.5
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