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Post by deepfriednew101 on Nov 6, 2023 15:33:59 GMT 1
Willie
your comment above is relevant
I used to discuss this with Ellsworth years ago. He insisted, as you do, that these special ingredients are necessities. My response was always: How did CHS find those exotic ingredients when he purchased things at the supermarket, in Salt Lake City, so he could cook for Pete? I've saved the responses throughout the years, and I never bought any of them. I don't even believe he used peppercorns at that time, as I don't remember seeing peppercorns in those days. And right off the bat, I'll maintain that CHS did not carry those ingredients in his pockets, as he was preparing to travel to Australia.
LOOK at MY last comments for YEARS and YEARS even ON The Other Forum I Have said LOOK at what spice were sold in 1925, 1936 - 1940 when C.H.S. made the First original Batches and keep in mind He was a mid Wife which used the Botanical item Herbs for medicine and what would have been COMMON to find.
Was Zat-ar even available in 1930's NO it was NOT.
As for Blends of Spices there were ONLY ONES like Cake and Pastry Spices, Chili Seasoning, BBQ seasoning, Poultry seasoning, and few others Pre Blended.
As for when Pete Harmon and C.H.S went to the store in Salt lake City purchased the Frozen Chickens which had to defrost Prior to cooking and the Spices which C.H.S. use to make the Chicken and Gravy. Pete Harmon Paid for ALL the items ON his Credit account that Day. I had a Conversation with Leon Pete Harmon about the First Day they were cooked the Chicken By C.H.S.
Leon Pete recreated the Chicken recipe from watch C.H.S. and having the spies which were left at His location as Leon Pete Cleaned UP the Kitchen after they Ate and He Had ALL the Spices sitting on the Counter. He said there was some exotic items BUT exotic referred to ones from Jamaica
Leon Pete said that they were Household items like Mace and some items which many never used in Chicken recipes BUT remember there were NOT many restaurant's making Fried Chicken at that time, it was a item cooked at home.
The Options that were available at Leon Pete Harmon Family Store was NOT Off the wall spices and seasoning and somewhere in the past i printed what they carried as Spices and even obtained old ad's and what Brands they sold. in the year.
As for a point of interest The Recipe which I have in C.H.S. writing and the Recipe which Tommy S has uses regular shelf items
Tommy claims 11 items in the recipe
I have said this the Recipe which I have shows 11 items listed as the Base and other items WHICH ARE NOT Herbs and Spices listed also BUT NOT with the 11 items
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cman
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Post by cman on Nov 6, 2023 16:42:32 GMT 1
On the subject of CHS using Frozen chicken used in the original recipe, I would conjecture if the freezing is part of the recipe. But wouldn’t that leave a tell tale sign of the freezing on the cooked bones being discolored in the original batches. And the meat quality would then have a more mushy consistency compared to a fresh chicken.
Or, perhaps the marination requires colder temperatures for the spices to permeate? Why would CHS take 10 hours to cook the chicken?
On the subject of sesame seeds- fresh or toasted, I cannot discern the taste on the KFC from throughout the ages. Peking Duck has that very distinctive taste and smell of the sesame oil. Untoasted sesame oil is almost without smell and taste.
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smallgree
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Post by smallgree on Nov 7, 2023 1:08:27 GMT 1
All assumptions. I know for certain that the 26 or 32 oz weights as a standard won't work when skillet frying. Conclusion? Extracts were used from the early 50s. KFC shifted to mostly pepper and msg because of the cost of whole spices and herbs. Which ones degrade the most after cooking, and which ones survive the heat best? It is no secret that KFC has, and has had, laboratories since the early days. I cooked great chicken the other day, but used the "standard" weight parameters. I will increase the amounts next time, and then test the 2016 KFC seasoning. My mind keeps telling me fennel, sage and rosemary, but not certainly at the levels we've been using. I'm also thinking that in the early days, the 11 Hs&Ss were mixed with some black pepper, and the white and black peppers were kept separate from the 11. The sumac and the za'atar did little, IMO.
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Post by Chickenman on Nov 7, 2023 11:37:45 GMT 1
I also think Fennel seed is in the recipe imo.
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Post by deepfriednew101 on Nov 7, 2023 15:14:22 GMT 1
C.H.S. used fresh Chicken in his cooking I reference the Leon Peter Harmon Day when they had to use the Frozen chicken that day as that is ALL the Harmon store had left that day.
Currently Chicken is shipped to Canadian K.F.C. Frozen and Some Fresh But the Majority is shipped to Rural areas FROZEN due to the Shipments they get are usually Once a week. Fresh chicken is NOT acceptable to refrigerate for 1 week.
There is a specific Defrost Process for the Chicken also which K.F.C. New Age uses.
As For the Pepper issue Bill S. advocated that High Quality Pepper was what was ORIGINALLY used and further commented that the NEW AGE K.F.C. was forced to USE other Pepper due to NOT enough Tellicherry available. This was also Written about in the K.F.C. bulletins in the 1970's regarding the Pepper Shortage.
Personally a Higher Quality pepper Fresh Cracked ground etc. Makes a Major Flavor difference Liquid pepper is also effective BUT small quantity are over $80.00 per Bottle for Food Grade Liquid pepper. NOT worth the experiment
A Rainbow Pepper can Give some extra depth to the seasoning also.
Using some FRESH Herbs is a quality changer in Recipe also
I think Willie was ON the Correct path using His Chili Seasoning in Previous year.
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cman
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Post by cman on Nov 7, 2023 19:44:41 GMT 1
That makes sense!
One more issue is the use of meat tenderizer.
When pressure frying, I notice the meat would get tough after it cools: fresh chicken was used. The standard 2-3 minute seal and 7 minutes pressure frying was the pressure cooking method.
I assume that the toughness comes about as a result of the collagen being released and perfused throughout the tissues.
I suppose that a better timing could be done to prevent the meat from getting dehydrated and another seal frying- which I haven’t yet attempted.
Could CHS have used papain tenderizer back in the 40s or perhaps bicarbonate soda?
The soda could leave a very recognizable residue taste. But the excessive salt, spices and perhaps sugar could mask the soda taste.
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Post by underpressure on Nov 8, 2023 4:59:40 GMT 1
CMan—I’d say yes to the sodium bicarbonate.
DF101—Fresh chicken, properly refrigerated, will 100% last over 1 week. In fact it will last 2 weeks, from slaughter. The issue is, most distributors get chicken that’s already 5-7 days past slaughter, before shipping to restaurants( which could be another 1-3 days). I get chickens 1-3 days after slaughter. They will last 14 days after that date.
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cman
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Post by cman on Nov 8, 2023 13:31:13 GMT 1
Underpressure :
Then another issue arises: How the alteration in ph changes the Herbs and spices.
The problem could be resolved if the alkalinity is neutralized after the meat/ collagen is tenderized. The neutralization is done with buttermilk or milk/ vinegar. I do detect a whiff of milk with vinegar in the original recipe. The aroma could very well be mistaken for mustard? And then the herbs spices are added to the chicken, milk and vinegar.
Or perhaps the herb and spice marinade already mixed is added in one step.
Perhaps Silver has done some work with the alteration of the spices with regard to the changes in ph. Could the some of the spices be enhanced or diminished or no effect at all.
If diminished, then the dry coating step with herbs and spices . becomes more important.
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Post by deepfriednew101 on Nov 8, 2023 15:57:24 GMT 1
CMan—I’d say yes to the sodium bicarbonate. DF101—Fresh chicken, properly refrigerated, will 100% last over 1 week. In fact it will last 2 weeks, from slaughter. The issue is, most distributors get chicken that’s already 5-7 days past slaughter, before shipping to restaurants( which could be another 1-3 days). I get chickens 1-3 days after slaughter. They will last 14 days after that date. I agree that Fresh Chicken can Lat 7 days to 14 days. You are correct that the Chicken have a delivery and process time also which is undetermined. As a reference and cooked 10 of thousand Birds Both Fresh and frozen. similar to Turkey which is usually Frozen and I'm certain in most cases very Few people have ate FRESH TURKEY or Chicken or Duck. if the majority of the People were given two plates of K.F.C. Fried Chicken they would NOT determine the one which was Fresh compared to the other Plate which was Frozen before cooked. They are so comparable it is NOT recognized which is which. |
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smallgree
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Post by smallgree on Nov 9, 2023 21:12:39 GMT 1
When I cook turkey, I always look for fresh, unfrozen birds. You have to grab one quick because they don't last long in the stores. The sell quick. The taste and texture is far superior to frozen turkey.
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